Transcript

All right, so welcome to today's episode where we dive deep into the world of biotechnology exploring the current edge advancements that are shaping our future. Today's guest is Vince Liguria, Vince is the CEO of Ageless Biotech, a company currently making waves with its phase 2B FDA approved clinical trial for treating osteoarthritis for the knee. 

His expertise doesn't stop here, he's also a board member and investor at Alcan Bioscience and the CEO of L2BIR, the nation's leading stem cell banking operations. L2BIR is revolutionizing the way we think about healthcare, creating stem cells for life with FDA approved equipment. 

So join us as we get insightful perspective from Vince on the groundbreaking work his teams are doing, the challenges they face and incredible potential the projects hold for the future of medicine. Now before I turn the mic to Vince, I want to mention that Vince was involved with running the world's largest anti-aging medical association. 

He's one of the original pioneers of the exosome and the pioneer in the adipose derived stem cell space. Vince has an educational and post-grad background that consists of Marquette University, the London School of Economics, the Spanish American Institute and Harvard, with specialties focusing on alternative finance, mostly focused in healthcare. 

He has also passed the bar exam. Vince is involved significantly with majority influence or ownership positions in the seven different FDA approved or in various phases of current investigational new drugs or investigational new devices. 

Exemptions referred to as INDs and IDEs and hold seven approved patents with four more applications pending. So, Vince, let's start this conversation by explaining the FDA approved INDs that is in phase 2B, how this is being used for arterial arthritis and maybe how doctors could get involved. 

Sure. Actually, that's a great way to start. So, several years ago, as anybody that's involved in regenerative medicine understands, the FDA kind of had a mandate and they had some what they call looser interpretation or regulatory discrepancy and the fancy word is the HCTP 1270, well, CFR 1271. 

You don't really have to remember, memorize that, but the reality of this is that they wanted to push us all into, at least, you know, while we had a little, know, regulatory gray area to operate in the stem cell industry basically, which is exosomes were included in. 

But so what we did then is they wanted people to get INDs or investigation into drug applications for biologics and start pursuing that course to try to get, you know, regulatory approval in some of these processes. 

We took it very seriously. And a lot of people tried to and took it seriously. I'm not saying they didn't. Some probably just kind of ignored it, you know, went for the cash grab. But we actually had this IND approved in November 2019, like right before the original, what they call the regulatory, you know, guidance expiration. 

And that got continued to July 2020. So right now, this is an adipose drive stem cell injection we use on minor liposuction. We do process it in lab. We don't use enzymes. So we don't use collagenase. 

It changes the way we do the process. I'm not anti-collagenase. Collagenase helps dramatically in a doctor's office because it speeds up the process, but it is an enzyme. So we have an enzyme-free process. 

And it is done in a lab in a clean room environment, you know, with controlled FDA-approved devices that actually, you know, do the, you know, I guess at the point of entry procedure, which is minor liposuction. 

And then that is then changed into a mixture of stem cells. The process is currently called, most people call it SVF or stromovascular fraction. Our process is actually slightly different because we're not using enzymes. 

So it is a slower process and it is done in a clean room and then that same, those same cells. So what we're doing is we're creating a mixture of the various stem cell types, MSCs, you know, and the whole stromal family and various other stem cell types, over 100. 

And then those stem cells are injected back into the knee. And then what happens is, you know, we're tracking regeneration through various measures and people, at least you have an orthopedic background, you might not know what these are, but like. 

One current measurement is called WOMAC, and that's basically a, you know, manipulation of the knee and various things that, in this case, an orthopedic surgeon is doing because we're at this phase in the trial. 

And it's a pain measurement. It's subjective between what the patient feels and the doctor observes. The next measurement is called Lawrence, and that's where we use a more expensive scanner. So we use a Siemens T3 or Tesla 3, three-dimensional imaging MRI. 

So it's kind of, and we have checkpoints. So it's one injection over a period of time, which is a year, eventually we'll shorten it to six months. And we're approved as a phase 2B that will probably instantly progress into a phase 3 after about, you know, 18 to 20 more patients. 

The challenge is that, you know, how we do them in the rules and how we do everything because it's under... the IND and IRB guidelines. So those that don't know what an IND is will just reinforce that. 

It's an investigation on a new drug and IRB is an institutional review board. So we only use kind of the top of the top. So the FDA obviously improves the IND and then we use WCG, which is probably, you know, the Rolls Royce of IRBs. 

And so it's a 400 person multi-site clinical trial. Once again, you know, we have to follow their order. If I had all the money and we could do it right away, I would do all 401 year and go right for a drug approval. 

And the idea is to go right for a drug approval. Very interesting. I've heard something about you have INZ for Crohn's disease. We do. One of them. So with the L2 Bio product, which is, we kind of, it's a similar product, but we isolate the mesenchymal stem cells from, from adipose from about a tablespoon or two. 

And then we, we incubate those stem cells slowly over a period of time. And we grow basically a lifetime supply cells, those cells, according to the, you know, the FDA guideline, which is that July, 2020 guideline for homologous use, which is also called, you know, CFR 1271 HCTP. 

Maybe I messed up that order HCTP 1271, whatever, but it's very easily accessible via Google. Or if you can't find it, I can send it to you, Alex, and you can send it to all your listeners. But if you go to page three of that document, it falls under actually number four, one and two. 

And it would, it basically says that when, when you can use stem cells for systemic or, or, or promote their metabolic activity. And that's when they're autologous or for first and second degree blood relatives. 

So there is a orphan drug designation, maybe an approval, but I think it's technically a designation called CX 601 for Crohn's disease right now. I know I can talk a little fast, so I'll slow it down. 

It's called CX 601. It's an orphan drug designation approval, whichever terminology you're going to use. Crohn's disease. And it's a really pioneering industry. It's got full approvals in Japan, Germany, England, and there's one other I can't remember, these are all like the tough ones, the tough ones are obviously the USFDA, Japan, Germany and England. 

So, and what that does is it's an interleational injection for complex fistulas associated with Crohn's that can come all the way to the skin from the doo-daddies inside the body, right? And it's been very effective. 

Some of the remissions are up to, you know, a year, some are permanent, but a very high success rate. And the reason why it's an orphan drug designation, because a lot more than 200,000 people have Crohn's in the United States, but it's people that have complications with other Crohn's drugs or drugs being used to, you know, treat some other disease they're using on drugs. 

So, or those drugs are not effective. So, you know, that would be less than 200,000 people. So that's why it has a regulatory approval. That is like a permanent designation too. So really cool. It's probably, it really is the first STEM cell approval. 

So ours is slightly different, but we follow, you know, the great work of this company that created CX 601. And you can look it up. They have different names. The USA, they're like, I think Darvastad or Darvastad. 

Once again, CX 601. So anybody can Google what I say. So I know that. So I'm giving you factual information. I want the people to look at it. But the most important part about that is we're also following, and I think we have a higher degree or a higher safety profile than even that drug. 

And I think that drug is fine. That's an expanded adipose derived STEM cell product where they're expanding the MSCs and then re-injecting them interleationally. We're looking at a first degree blood relative, or autologous cases done systemically with a small IV push that can be done every three months to alleviate symptoms, kind of the same idea we're going after. 

We obviously believe that this is, you know, but we'd like to qualify people that are having already problems or, you know, contraindications with other, you know, well-known drugs. And there's always side effects with most drugs. 

We believe there's almost no side effects. Well, it's virtually impossible when you use a autologous or first degree blood relative. It's a much higher safety profile. And that way we can grow enough cells to treat that person for life. 

It will actually be more affordable. But, you know, from a commercialized side, because, you know, also looking at this, because this stuff's expensive and the people on the end need to make money too. 

Even people consider the pharma companies that don't need money. But remember to run a business, you need money. Doing this every, you know, four times a year safely and growing it from, you know, the person or a first degree blood relative is a very high safety profile. 

And, you know, it can give very safe long-term treatment when necessary. area maybe one injection will cure somebody I doubt it but there's a lot of evidence showing you know really long remission but regardless that's where we're going with that that is ready that is actually filed where we have to wait for a test so we're hoping to have that refiled this Friday which I believe is the 11th and we're expecting I'm expecting a 30-day approval from the FDA maybe 60 for that trial and we're trying to do that as a phase 2 as well I don't know if they're gonna give us a phase 2B but that would be nice because you know right after B is a 3 and then it's a much shorter path but well we believe it's a you know we believe it's a home run and we're really it's not just money we're trying to help people with this too and that's kind of it I obviously if we have a personal family member with Crohn's disease and you know we we understand it's you know it's a big problem it is a big problem so yeah having something that can treat the actual problem would be amazing versus giving people something that will only mask Yeah, 

well the big one is limited side effects. Can you talk a little bit about the L2 Bio? What it does, what type of stem cell banking it does, and how is it different from umbilical or banking? So that is, we've actually, we're not new at this, okay? 

I started doing this, obviously I just told you that that IND was approved in November 2019 by the FDA, so you have to start a little bit before that to get it approved. It's not always easy to get an IND approved, as we're one of the, I mean, I could count on my hand companies in my position that have IND approvals, especially as far as advanced as I have, that aren't like big pharma companies with billions of dollars. 

I mean, some of them have been a few years longer than me and may have just got their first IND approved, and it's a phase one, whereas we're already, you know, well ahead of the curve here. I mean, I think we're very close to drug approval, to be honest with you. 

And what I mean by drug approval, I mean, I still believe a doctor should be able to do this in their own office, but the reality is the cost. Eventually I expect Medicare to pay for this, and it'd be a way to avoid knee surgery for, you know, millions and millions of people in the United States. 

So L2bio, we take a tablespoon or two of fat, and we typically take it out of the back. It's really like a, almost a skin biopsy and not like true liposuction. We only use FDA approved cannulas. So they're like an extraction and an aspirating cannula. 

We only use the name brand, FDA cleared, we use Tulip, single disposable for safety. So single sterile disposable, cannulas, FDA approved or cleared, you know, the terminology is interchangeable, I guess, but technically it's cleared. 

And we use that, we take that little bit of fat, we do it under a local anesthesia. Most people would notice, Tommussant, it is created, I'm popularized by Dr. Klein, but anyway, so it's, you know, in most. 

cases it's painless. The anesthesia sometimes stinks more than the procedure. The anesthesia takes about 15 to 20 minutes. The procedure itself takes three to five minutes. We do both sides of the flank and the back that go all the way in. 

The reason why is we want it even. Rarely does it leave a mark and if it did, we want to make sure that we remove this little bit of fat evenly on both sides. Very easy. We can do first and by the way with this process second degree blood relatives and treat somebody's entire family and that's a neat one. 

Alex, if you have children, you could harvest yourself and it would work for all your children and anybody related to basically by first and second degree. By the way, like I just told you, this crazy test that we had to pay all this money for, we'll actually validate and prove that. 

That's something that could be available. I'll have it at the latest this Friday but the reality of it is that I don't know what we're going to be able to release that but my goal is to release the whole thing. 

I'll be fighting with the investors, right? But the reality is that we'll that will really enhance the safety profile. With that product, then we can, like now or in the future, now remember, there's some argument about what you can market in doctor-client privilege or doctor-patient privilege and then the concept of clinical autonomy. 

Your doctor can discuss many treatment options with you, but to market treatments blatantly in the media or social media or in print writing or on the radio is slightly irresponsible because every person is different and has a different metabolism and different issues going on and you really should talk to your doctor, one. 

And two, the FDA would consider, you know, if I went out and marketed Crohn's disease, that's not in my trial recruiting blanketly to everybody, that would be considered a claim and in most cases be irresponsible as well. 

And you know, we're all about safety and helping people, but so now we're creating this bank of stem cells for people for life and the biggest thing is it's pretty affordable. It's actually less money than most people pay for minor stem cell injection treatments. 

We're talking about banking these for your entire life to protect you and your family and you could do like me, you know, I'm harvesting all my relatives. I say that, and some of them don't have any issues at all, but you know, people are worried about, you know, the future and you know, why not have a bunch of stem cells that can, I definitely have the most clinical studies going on and the most proof, 

the only FDA approval and I can, you know, I can validate everything I say and I can send like presentations to anybody that wants to see them that I've done and you can show them to everybody, including the FDA because some of the language I take on her is from the FDA. 

So that's it, so you're taking that, I'll summarize it because I can get long-winded and talk fast. We're taking a little bit of fat from you, two tablespoons, maybe one and we're sending it to our FDA clear and audited lab and registered and tissue bank and then we actually have a perfect audit which we can also release. 

We're what I consider a perfect audit, no, but we can... can release that as well that anybody that's interested. And then we're incubating them kind of in a perfect environment, like 98.6 degree temperature, right, you know, right proteins, etc. 

With only the best company on the markets, you know, culture, and we grow them slowly. And we're trying to get a lot of times we see those cells come out are more perfect than original, and they differentiate or they proliferate into new cells slowly. 

And they're like brand new baby cells, zero age cells right away. It's pretty awesome. So the idea is you take two teaspoons of fat, tablespoons, extract stem cells, and then you grow them. Yeah, multiply them. 

Yeah, I mean, that's what it is. I mean, we like the word incubate because, like, there's, there's two ways you really grow cells. I mean, for all intensive purpose or practical purposes, you incubate them or you use a bioreactor and you force growth to stress the cells more, to grow them more. 

Then there's a 2D and a 3D culture and there's some advantages to either or, but the reality is that's it basically. So we incubate them and we grow them slowly. Now we can't do this for like the mass market, like if I was creating access homes, but we can for you and all your kids and your mom and stuff. 

I can see how safety is definitely going to be a big concern for people, especially hearing that some of them go to Mexico, Columbia or buying them off shelf. Oh boy, you hit it right on the head. Have you seen what people pay for way inferior treatments? 

Less regulation, drastically multiplied, expanded umbilical products. Not saying I like umbilical products too, they have their place. But when you mass produce them like that, you're basically creating, you can use the argument that, oh yeah, we're creating a more consistent stem cell and we're looking at this market, this marker CD125B16, you'll hear them throw all this crap out there, which is accurate, 

but also weird science because we don't know what happens when you remove this and add that. We still don't know. Stem cells are miraculous in a lot of ways, right? God's plan. And then we're growing them and we're really expanding them for that consistency. 

But honestly, Alex, that's BS. What's really happening is I'm expanding them multiple times so I have more and I keep that cost down. So now I've created my cost, it's down to a dollar a vial and I'm charging, I could just tell you the story of this family that went, or seven families that went to Columbia and they paid $27,000 each and they add some initial results. 

Don't say they don't work. The survival rate on these products is not as high as out of post-drive cells. It's a whole other subject. I can survive for weeks and months. But they have to get that initial result right away because what doesn't happen is they don't stick around. 

Those cells don't live long enough. So you have to do massive amounts. And then what happens in a month or two. months when your child with autism or you know or muscular dystrophy or Dushan's muscular dystrophy or anything horrible like that needs more treatments you're gonna come up with another twenty seven thousand dollars in a trip to Colombia are you gonna you know call health to bio and get a vial for 500 bucks with with more cells that have a much lower profile risk and you could do more and like this you know for all practical purposes we can do this for life it's pretty interesting very interesting so how if if if a doctor would love to get involved with L2 bio what is the process oh it's really easy so I mean our website is l2bio.com they can reach out to them they can email you for my email and we actually have a whole staff and a sales team and I can hook them up with the right person we're actually even gonna do something unique that I'm gonna unveil to you right now we're actually two things unique we're gonna actually have like up a cost that's basically the cost of the chemicals for a doctor or immediate family, 

one of them, so that they can do it themselves, so they know the difference, so that they become more involved. And even if they don't ever order from us again, at least we know we're helping somebody and it's a positive message out there. 

That's one, and that's something I think everybody should take advantage of. And when I tell you the cost, but I mean that's something that I believe in. Why not put these cells away in its nominal cost to store it annually, less than umbilical cord products, which they probably aren't, they don't have any live cells anyways for the most part. 

And the other thing too is we're also creating a private membership association, or called a PMA. Not only is our process legal and compliant, banking and growing cells that's regulated by the FDA, but that is legal and it becomes your property. 

We're actually creating a channel, and we're not charging for this, okay? So every doctor that joins our network, we're creating a channel, so we're not charging the physician. That they can communicate under first and 14th amendment protection, and they can talk about different ways they treat people and different things they do without fear of people coming after the data. 

There's HIPAA, and there's also doctor-patient confidentiality, and also clinical autonomy, which is another term, which is a legal lesson we can get into later. But most doctors understand they have a right to do what they think is safe, and it's going to help their patients as long as it's safe and legal. 

But this is just another protection. And then we've added some marketing things to that too, so that they have basically, we can send out a, they can use our content and send out safe, compliant email or newsletters to their patients about some of this technology, and we can do patient-facing webinars for them. 

Because that's the biggest problem. I understand a lot of doctors aren't salespeople, but at least we can inform people, and they can make decisions. And when they call, you know, Dr. Joe Back or Dr. 

Sally, they kind of understand the game a little bit before they get there. So and then we have articles that are, you know, sourced with various, you know, actually, they're sourced, you know, so you can even see references to studies. 

And that's just, that's just something we're doing. And that's to help the physician. That's what we're doing. So getting involved is very easy. So you just basically, you can actually contact here, I'll give you an email right off the bat, mari at l2bio.com. 

It's, you know, trust me, it was not easy to get us a short domain like that, either, as you're in that business, you understand that people are already trying to buy our name. They, I don't even know if they sell other things like vitamins and Koolaid or whatever, right? 

Yeah. So it sounds like a pretty serious operation you created there. Who is your typical investor? Who is an investor right in? Oh, well, that's interesting, because we aren't taking shortcuts. And even when I tried to push the envelope in different areas, it just doesn't work as well. 

So we're doing everything the right way. So at first, this wasn't a very profitable endeavor. Because we are using the right culture and the right atmosphere and, you know, we're trying to stay regulatory compliant and we're only using, if they approved equipment, then we're buying, you know, we're only get our, you know, really get our cannulas from Tulip. 

I believe we only get the tanks from Fisher. I mean, everything has a little bit more. We use rooster biotech for the testing and a lot of other things, and they're more expensive than everybody else. 

So, money, money did become a thing. So, I don't know if anybody, any of your listeners, I'm guessing a few of them drink Petrone tequila or have used Paul Mitchell hair products, but John Paul DeGioria, actually, very, I mean, just a really great guy on top of that, besides, you know, the selfish plug I'm giving there, but it's just true, you might have seen him on Shark Tank, but he owns Petrone tequila and Paul Mitchell and some other stuff. 

And he also owns 25% of L2 bio. So, it's always nice to have the friendly billionaire in your corner, right? That everybody kind of loves. And he's got a, he's got really nice hair like me too, which is cool. 

You've been involved in anti agent space for a very long time. Where do you see this anti agent field is going as more investors and more general public getting aware of it? That's actually one of the best questions somebody's asked me because when anti aging used to be, even when I got involved, it was like, drink lots of water, HGH, hormones came along, peptides started coming around. 

Man, posture is important, right? Gravity sucks. And try to do exercise that isn't gonna hurt you, right? And walk a lot. I mean, these are the advancements, right? Now, what's really neat is objective measurements. 

Don't just think this one out. We can do objective measurements. And then, you know, then we had the stem cell industry and then really started with adipose drive stem cells and the process known as SVF and that was working really good. 

was being taught, you know, 2012, 2014 are really going, then there was, you know, some issues with that, which we could comment on later. But I believe in the process. We do think slightly differently, but, you know, we've evolved a tiny bit. 

Still great process, right? So where I see it going is I see that it's not just the investment. Now, of course, there's a lot of, you know, unsavory sales and preying on people, getting old and sick people and all that. 

That's all horrible, but that's going to go on in anything. It happens in car sales. Some old lady comes in, she got a check. She doesn't, you know, she shouldn't be driving a Porsche. She leaves in a Porsche with her walker, right? 

It happens in stem cell sales and it happens in every type of industry. It's not good, but I don't think we're going to stop it. And that's why we have regulators, hopefully, and good relatives and conscientious doctors to talk to. 

So I think it's going more towards this. I think the doctor-patient relationship has to evolve. even more than it has been. And it has continued to evolve. As more and more and more pressures, more and more, how would you say, environmental pressures in AI are taking the doctor out of the equation and mid-levels doing things that doctors should be doing, I think that that relationship has to grow stronger because everybody's an individual. 

I'm gonna rest on that one and I'm gonna go right into the next one, okay? I think that we need to look at objective measurements more and the testing is getting a little better. We recently just did an internal study on raising NAD levels with a product we make. 

And there's other things inside there, not just the NAD levels that we're talking about. We have objective measurements using blood and circulating cells for NAD. That's a measurement. A few years back, Craig Fahey did a study on HGH and a few vitamins, probably because they paid for the study, but it showed over a year, they reversed the thymus, which was another marker of hatred, just like pretty cool, 

right? So we believe, now we're seeing crazy stuff with adipose drive cells, but we're also in clinical trials. I mean, I can tell you we've regenerated and close to 100 knees to get to where we are right now and now we're going to a 400-person multi-site trial. 

Now the problem is this all costs money and Vince here in my little gang is competing with pharma companies and eventually one will be our partner, hopefully give us enough money to finish this trial, but we're going this year strong and we're self-funded right now, but we'll be taking in money because a 400-person multi-site clinical trial of $15,000 a person, plus paying the doctor and the MRI cost is very expensive. 

You could just do 400 times $15,000 and I don't want you to do it now because it scares me, but that's what this costs. And then in Crohn's disease, we're doing the same thing. I'm expecting the Crohn's to go just as fast because we're so sure of it and there's already an orphan drug designation on the market. 

So we're pretty, and ours is, I think a lower barrier of risk. And then we're working on five other INDs right now. So these things and allowing people to get in, the FDA's been a little bit. more liberal, I think, recently, even like the way they look at things like even in this guidance that came out, this is like going to shock people. 

I actually think in a couple of things, the FDA is more liberal than me, which if Peter Marks is listening to this call, he's probably just had an accident in his pants, right? But I'll just tell you, when I looked at that guidance, I looked at page three and he said, it's okay to market first and second degree blood relatives for metabolic activity and systemic use. 

I would have, the first degree blood relatives, I understand. The second degree would have been something I would have, you know, because that's like, Alex, all your cousins. Hey, it's awesome. But when we're filing this trial, we're only filing first degree blood relatives because we're trying to be a little more conservative, even though it's right in that document right there. 

So in that case, the FDA is a little more liberal than even me, right? So I think that This is the future, and the measurements are just as important. And looking at real science, and I think we need to keep, or at least start some of this in the USA or where you're from, and bring this technology to other countries, like our technology, why would you take your kid's life in your hands if your kid's sick, 

and further complicate it, and go to some country where there's almost no regulation, and they can say anything. They talk about crazy science, add this marker, add that marker, do this, do that. When you can do it at a fraction of the price in the U.S., and if that procedure is not legally compliant here, why not go to the other country and do it, or plan your stem cell vacation, but at least you know, 

at the very least, you know it's safe. I mean, safety is important, because remember, one of the first principles of the, well, in the Hippocratic Oath is to do no harm. You don't know what happens, and let's face it, some of these countries don't publish, like I love to go to Costa Rica, but there was a crocodile attack two weeks ago. 

It's not anywhere. I was looking for it on the U.S. news. I heard it was a tourist. They probably don't want to popularize that, but it turns out, it was somebody that jumped in a crocodile-infested river off a bridge, and the police shot at the crocodile. 

I wasn't sure if they were shooting at the crocodile or the idiot that jumped off the bridge, right? Because the crocodiles are protected, but I mean, listen, that's stupid. But maybe spending three times as much money for a once in a, you know, for a one-time treatment and hoping, you know, this isn't magic. 

It's got to be repetitive. So, I think the moral of the story is you need to look at current technology that's legal in the United States. You need to look for regenerative medicine and anti-aging and all this stuff to work. 

It's also got to be repetitive. Remember, your body makes things faster and heals faster at an earlier age. So, you have to keep adding these stuff back in. So, it's got to be repetitive. It has to be kind of affordable so that you can afford to do it. 

It can't be a one-shot deal, and you have to have to come up with objective measurements. And we've been working with testing companies more and more to come up with objective measurements because we want to see it's working. 

If not, we can change something up, right? And I think you need to, not just work with me. you need to worry about yourself, you need to worry about your family. And one of the, we've obviously had a lot of wealthy people, but like our recent growth is like firemen and school teachers, and by the way, people whose kids are playing high school football, their cheerleading is really crazy and dangerous right now, 

right? So these cells, I mean, they're like an insurance plan for your kids, and you need to worry, you need to look at the future. So you need objective measurements, it needs to be repetitive, it needs to be affordable, and you need to look at the future, because what happens, you know, because the technology now, I mean, half the stuff might be legal in five years, right? 

Now you've got a big bank of all your cells, or you maybe, obviously they've shown it in labs, but maybe, you know, your kid has a problem with his heart eight years from, I don't want to say that, somebody else's kid has a problem with their heart eight years from now, right? 

Maybe we can take those stem cells and grow a new heart for them, right? Maybe, we don't know. But I mean, I think in certain environments, we could, but I mean, is that part gonna work when you put it in there? 

I don't know, but I mean. But why not? It's not that much money, and really, our whole process is usually less than your entire family out of pocket deductible. So that's where we're going with it. And I think that's important. 

Yeah, I agree. Another thing I want to ask you is, doctors who are working with stem cells, they've been watching FDA recently, winning an appeal with a cell surgical network. Can you talk about the recent ruling and what it means for those doctors? 

I was hoping you wouldn't ask this. But you're, okay, so they're really, if you read the ruling, and I understand a cell surgical network is going to fight this too. So without giving strong legal opinions, the challenge inside of that rule for most doctors is that, and it may or may not be a challenge, right? 

But I don't necessarily agree with it, but the FDA doesn't like enzymatic digestion. And the last round, cell surgical network won, and this appeal, it was, you know, three judges that kind of had a different opinion. 

But if you really look at what that means for the stem cell industry, and just pretend like cell surgical network is, I mean, they kind of fight in the fight for everybody else in paying the bill, who should all be, you know, we should almost all send them a thank you card, right? 

But what would happen here is that they've reinforced in this bill, the FDA's ability to regulate the stem cell industry. So like, like people like us, and there's others out there that are also going for regulatory approval, you know, I don't know, they should give us a pass on some of this stuff, but maybe they're not gonna, but we're, we're trying to stay within those regulations. 

I think your biggest challenge is marketing. And it's not necessarily the bad actors, and there's a lot of bad actors, it's things that can be misconstrued. I think you need to go back to the doctor patient relationship, and talk about general things in general health, and look at not just stem cells, everything. 

And I think you'll stay safe that way. But if you really look at this ruling, one of the, one of the challenges might be is the practice of medicine. Doctors should have the right to practice medicine and use their clinical autonomy to How would you say to do what's best for the interest of their patient, right? 

The challenge is that they've also reverted this back to the medical boards saying the medical boards have more control Now they've always had it but now they've kind of put it in writing They've always had the ability to pull your license But you have to be more concerned about the medical boards involvement right now in the state You're in when you do things and a lot of this is going to come down to marketing and how you practice So that's my opinion. 

I believe that cell surgical network is is going to fight this a little I Think that they're gonna be successful in some areas and and hopefully there's a compromise that we can all live with and shorten this whole process down and I wish everybody luck but I do believe that stem cells are good for people and we need to protect that and we need to maybe stay out of the hospital a little more and About eat better and do all the right the right things. 

So my opinion on that is I think pretty strong But unfortunately, you know the FDA and and their lawyers don't take my side of the coin But I believe that there's a compromise in here That can happen and I pray for it How do you think doctors can market those who are generous? 

Generous in medicine procedures and stay compliant so I don't get in trouble. So once again Alex, you're you're in a marketing business I'm just gonna tell you right now that the company that's marketing for you You you need to trust that person has your interest because most of them don't That's a big problem. 

So you'll see and we just went through around with one or two ourselves You know, I would rather have a long-term partner. That's not in it for the quick buck It's very important to hire the right marketing person and I'm giving you a shameless plug right now but not really I'm just telling this as a general thing because there it's just like You know somebody telling a doctor to you know, give that person cocaine so they can stay awake all night To study right? 

Well, it's not their license, right? It's the doctor's license. So you got to be careful that that this company whoever was helping you has got your best interest I think that's number one. Number two I think you need to talk about About establishing a relationship with the patient more so you can talk about these things because once a doctor has a relationship remember Your child is different than somebody else's child and i'm different than you and you know Your your wife is different than somebody else's wife or or somebody else's child I You need to emphasize this and you're competing a lot with people and we use them too and I like them both influencers That aren't doctors and don't really understand us. 

Most of them see like right now. You're competing with very famous people I like by the way, I love a lot of these people But you're competing with them that are getting stem cell treatments for free usually and they're promoting You know some clinic in mexico, right? 

Because they're getting it free and they can go back to the next time and they're rich in the first place Right a lot of them. So that in and that's not everybody in the united states. It's probably not 98 of them, right? 

So or or or higher So that's one of the things I think you can market all sorts of things. There are FDA compliant products. You can talk about FDA compliant You know products in and then discuss all your options when they get there I mean, there's be Mac devices stem cell banking is a big one. 

You can advertise stem cell banking. That's compliant Just don't advertise we're gonna stem cell bank to you know, you know grow your leg back, right? But it's peaks people interest I like the term autologous, you know Why I like that term that people think they don't know what it means if they think it's a fancy word Oh my god, these are autologous stem cells. 

They were you know, they were made in you're you know In a secret lab and your hometown in Russia, you know Remaining on on people since the 1930s to create the best stem cells in the world But these these are all legal compliant ways to market and and they do work and you'll see people come in for this stuff And then listen, I'll almost pushing this you need to have a personal consultation with the doctors the most important thing of all Because like how to like just to like I've pointed out earlier just blindly market, 

you know, that this cures that and this cures this and this is for that is irresponsible. That's not only not compliant, but because they say responsible, because we don't know, in my trial, just so you know, I would love to treat everybody's needs in the world, but there, we have a whole process, a lot of people don't qualify. 

I mean, even the weight can be a problem. I can treat your knee, but if you're 150 pounds overweight, your knees gonna get, you know, F worded up anyway, right? Or I could just you might need surgery, but you might be able to avoid it. 

And that's, that's where we're going with this. So marketing is very important. But if that marketing isn't steering somebody to talk to you, if you're using buzzwords, that are bad, and we kind of know what some of them are, right? 

Or you're making claims, the patient needs to understand that too. Now, definitely, when it comes to markets, and you have to understand the vertical, you have to understand terminology, you have to understand what you can and cannot say legally. 

So the doctor doesn't lose license later. And I'm sure there's all kind of horrible stories of doctors hiring markets and companies that do not understand anything and saying all kinds of things. You've probably seen a lot of it. 

Is that our fancy end music coming on? Time to go. I think the time to go music. I mean, this was pretty interesting conversation. I'm personally enjoy anything related to anti agent. It's why that's why I run the marketing company for anti agent field because passionate about it. 

But just to know in how forced themselves are going is pretty cool. And Alex, things are getting better. And thanks. Thanks for this opportunity to talk to you.